I love when you change the format. This was a really good chapter. (Well, the chapters are always good.) I really enjoyed everybody's reactions. And how Joe went about what he did. Talk about dramatic. :-D
Fantastic as always, mate. Love how Trevor came to the fore in this one. It has been said by many of your fans, but its wonderful to watch you deal with such complex characters with an incredibly light touch - the ease with which you seem to do this belies how serious an achievement that is. Keep it up!
I too really enjoyed the change of perspective. I think each character had great moments that really reflected their respective personality.
Also, back in Chapter 26 when Joe mentioned that his secret would become spectacularly public I was worried that he would be unwittingly outed so I'm glad that his coming out happened like this. It's such a refreshing twist on the traditional coming out story.
Yes! Seems like people interpreted that to mean that Joe would be unwillingly outed, which I hadn't meant to imply at all. He was always going to throw the grenade.
"KATIE: So you're actually assembling an oral history of your coming out, just so you have an anecdote. Okay, narcissist"
Haha, weirdly this was my favourite line.
Like others have said before I was bracing myself for a chapter where Joe was outed due to pouty malevolence by Chris or accidentally by somebody else. This was a far, far better alternative, and as you said it makes a lot more sense that Joe himself 'threw the grenade.'
Brilliant character moments for the whole 'cast'- Trevor in particular, totally hilarious. And poor, poor little Stephanie! The description of each housemate's 'distilled' character was perfect. Michelle is wonderful.
Though it was left unsaid, Chris' absence was painful in its conspicuousness. Even horrible Rob had something (horrible) to say in the end.
I don't think I've ever read a better account of the college experience, or of college friendships. So thank you so much for writing this.
In a way it's a weight off my own shoulders that Joe finally came out! It was getting clearer and clearer that he was ready, and it was stressing me out!
Looking forward to the next chapter, getting scared of the approaching ending
Of course everyone who says how brilliantly this is written and delights in the versatility of an entirely new format is right. But I'm surprised that no one has noticed what I thought was one of the most interesting points about this exchange: how Joe, after all these years, still is protective of Chris. Despite how horribly Chris has treated him, he still thinks that Chris's secret is his and his alone to spill. So even when the conversation turns to Chris's supposed Platonic crush on him, Joe's response is simply noncommital. Among his other qualities, Joe is surely a mensch among men
Why is that wrong? I would never out somebody, except an anti-gay leader, like a politician or preacher. It is against the "code." It sounds like Chris is being hurt by his own attitudes without needing to be maliciously outed. It seems like nearly ALL of his college friends don't speak to him anymore. What would Joe gain from outing Chris, besides some sort of petty vengeance?
Yeah, I'm the one who is wrong. For some reason, I thought mensch was a negative word, like the word "idiot." I have no idea what short-circuited in my brain to make me think that. So, sorry anon 201406171217, I apparently need to work on my common Yiddish.
I love how you are so willing to experiment with different viewpoints. It was a great idea to have the multiple viewpoints on Joe's coming out. As mentioned by someone above, Trevor really revealed himself to be the most awesome friend to Joe through the whole incident. I did feel the love Joe still had for Chris by protecting him years later.
The only thing I would say that didn't quite work for me was the set up of all of these people (including Joe's mum) being together to specifically discuss Joe's coming out.
Fave line: I don't tell you every time I cunniling a woman.
There was zero intention on my part to imply that this was a transcript of a group conversation. I agree that that would make no sense and be generally insane.
One way to read this might be as a series of gchats or phone calls that happened over time and were selectively edited by Joe. But there might be other ways to understand it as well.
I read it is as Joe giving us a play (a drama, if you will) describing the drama of his coming out. Matt then fits nicely, I believe, as Greek chorus. JSH
I was thinking of it as one of those multiple video clip things that cut back and forth between different people being interviewed - although it could also have been a group chat I suppose.
I don't know how this will work as a chapter when you finally publish this as a novel, but it wasn't difficult to follow here.
I imagined it as a documentary - Joe’s friends as historians sitting in a book-lined study, describing the Battle of Antietam to Ken Burns.
I actually really like the ambiguity around what these conversations “actually” are. It goes well with the general ambiguity surrounding the whole format of the story. Joe presents himself not just as the narrator but as the author (referring to getting emails from readers, or how the act of writing has helped him understand his relationship with Chris better). And yet who was writing Chapter 16? Then in the next chapter Joe continues the story as if he never left us. The blurring between memoir and fiction is part of the charm. In fact, we should probably consider JPM’s blog and Twitter feed as part of the narrative ambiguity of the story. When a character is the author, maybe the author is a character too. I mean, surely it’s no coincidence that Joe and JPM share an initial.
"In fact, we should probably consider JPM’s blog and Twitter feed as part of the narrative ambiguity of the story."
You're giving me some interesting ideas.
In addition to being the stock symbol for J.P. Morgan, JPM is the initials of the narrator in the first story I wrote. I'm glad that I didn't call my gmail account cooldude420 or backstreet4eva.
the format of various voices reminds one of "Our Town." There is also a Faulkneresque stream of consciousness element. Great narrative. The movie will be amazing.
I thought that chapter was really sad. I know that it was unlikely that Joe and Chris would get back together given how Chapter 26 ended. I guess I had hoped they would eventually. Maybe meet up in Union Square after work some chilly October day. But what I didn’t understand was why Joe, who is such a tremendously private guy, would out himself in such a spectacularly public way. And then why would he immediately go into hiding after affirmatively choosing to engage everyone. It dawned on me, though, that Joe probably didn’t come out for himself. He came out for Chris--to save him from a lifetime “sitting in front of a flat screen, anxious and adrift.” That was an absolutely stunning gift Joe gave Chris, who could not even recognize it as something positive. And I thought my heart broke when Chris tore up the letter.
The irony is that I think Chris needs Joe more than Joe needs Chris. Joe actually loves Chris in a way most adults would recognize, but Chris’s seems more visceral, a deep emotional and psychological connection. Both, facing each other’s loss after graduation, react differently. Joe grabs onto Chris to draw him in; Chris recoils from his pain. The more Joe pulls him in, the more Chris resists. Had Joe set a course for himself and let Chris come along on his own terms, they would likely have been together I bet. But maybe that wouldn’t have been the best for either.
"Joe probably didn’t come out for himself. He came out for Chris"
But did he? He says he knew exactly how Chris would react - and yea, maybe that's an exaggeration borne of hindsight, but they were so close that maybe he really did know how Chris would react, and if he could predict that, why would he think that coming out in his column would save Chris from a lifetime sitting in front of a flat screen, anxious and adrift?
I wasn’t suggesting that I thought Chris was going to read that column and suddenly become Mr. Gay Pride. I was thinking that by coming out, maybe Joe was hoping to show Chris that it would be okay to be gay, maybe even to be out. That would necessarily take some time. I just don't see why Joe would out himself so publicly and then go hide from everyone unless something else was driving it.
Another absolutely unbelievable segment of the story unfolds. Getting a little "flowery" with the metaphor here, but reading this is like looking at a garden... each character opens up and is beautiful to look at but the story as a whole is just so spectacular when you step back and take a look at the sum of it's parts. Absolutely incredible writing... I can't help but feel like this latest chapter really highlights how the pressure in coming out is really an internal one. Knowing how Chris would react, knowing his friends/family (to the extent that any of us know) and their reactions, Joe treats it like a band-aid that needs to come off in one painful swipe, BAM! its done. But what really happens is that people care about him and want to partake in his personal life and get worried and concerned when he is incommunicado. So many people care, care about him and he just wants the dust to settle, which is understandable. Amazing that this story is fiction, its so applicable to so much of life. Bravo, you continue to outdo yourself JPM!
Just saw your latest Twitter post. I actually did get your Westeros allusions in Chapter 25 and loved them! A nice touch that emphasized how much the week in Michigan was like a trip to a fantasy world. And "winter is coming" was some nice foreshadowing.
Brilliant chapter. Such an interesting, innovative approach to present the cacophony of voices and reactions. Reading the comments made by so many other readers is almost as good as devouring the chapters. Some of the points of view are surprising and different to my own, but most of the comments mesh in with my own feelings about the story. I love reading the debate on the characters, but more than that I like readers' expression of their reasons for admiration for this incredibly well crafted piece of writing. It is astonishing how so many aspects of the story can be so good. The story line, the occasional change of mode, the narrative pace changes, the character development and most of all the beautiful language. The description of Joe's trip was simply awesome. Articulate water. A very interesting concept - where did you get that from JPM?
Here's my biggest problem - for me, unfortunately it's a struggle to express admiration for the story with anything approaching the skill in which the story has been written.
I went to a graduation recently and s the pain of ending on so many faces. I spoke to a number of the graduates about their emotions. It was gut wrenching to see and it make me think of past chapters.
I have been reading this story since you started writing it, and I have been waiting for each new chapter since I read the first one, sometime in August 2008. Thank you so much for the time and effort you have put into it.
Brilliant chapter. Such an interesting, innovative approach to present the cacophony of voices and reactions. Reading the comments made by so many other readers is almost as good as devouring the chapters. Some of the points of view are surprising and different to my own, but most of the comments mesh in with my own feelings about the story. I love reading the debate on the characters, but more than that I like readers' expression of their reasons for admiration for this incredibly well crafted piece of writing. It is astonishing how so many aspects of the story can be so good. The story line, the occasional change of mode, the narrative pace changes, the character development and most of all the beautiful language. The description of Joe's trip was simply awesome. Articulate water. A very interesting concept - where did you get that from JPM?
Here's my biggest problem - for me, unfortunately it's a struggle to express admiration for the story with anything approaching the skill in which the story has been written.
I went to a graduation recently and s the pain of ending on so many faces. I spoke to a number of the graduates about their emotions. It was gut wrenching to see and it make me think of past chapters.
I have been reading this story since you started writing it, and I have been waiting for each new chapter since I read the first one, sometime in August 2008. Thank you so much for the time and effort you have put into it.
I love when you change the format. This was a really good chapter. (Well, the chapters are always good.) I really enjoyed everybody's reactions. And how Joe went about what he did. Talk about dramatic. :-D
ReplyDeleteFantastic as always, mate. Love how Trevor came to the fore in this one. It has been said by many of your fans, but its wonderful to watch you deal with such complex characters with an incredibly light touch - the ease with which you seem to do this belies how serious an achievement that is. Keep it up!
ReplyDeleteI too really enjoyed the change of perspective. I think each character had great moments that really reflected their respective personality.
ReplyDeleteAlso, back in Chapter 26 when Joe mentioned that his secret would become spectacularly public I was worried that he would be unwittingly outed so I'm glad that his coming out happened like this. It's such a refreshing twist on the traditional coming out story.
Yes! Seems like people interpreted that to mean that Joe would be unwillingly outed, which I hadn't meant to imply at all. He was always going to throw the grenade.
Delete"KATIE: So you're actually assembling an oral history of your coming out, just so you have an anecdote. Okay, narcissist"
ReplyDeleteHaha, weirdly this was my favourite line.
Like others have said before I was bracing myself for a chapter where Joe was outed due to pouty malevolence by Chris or accidentally by somebody else. This was a far, far better alternative, and as you said it makes a lot more sense that Joe himself 'threw the grenade.'
Brilliant character moments for the whole 'cast'- Trevor in particular, totally hilarious. And poor, poor little Stephanie!
The description of each housemate's 'distilled' character was perfect. Michelle is wonderful.
Though it was left unsaid, Chris' absence was painful in its conspicuousness. Even horrible Rob had something (horrible) to say in the end.
I don't think I've ever read a better account of the college experience, or of college friendships. So thank you so much for writing this.
In a way it's a weight off my own shoulders that Joe finally came out! It was getting clearer and clearer that he was ready, and it was stressing me out!
Looking forward to the next chapter, getting scared of the approaching ending
"I don't think I've ever read a better account of the college experience, or of college friendships."
DeleteAhhhhhhhh, thank you so much! That's an awesome compliment.
Crap! PS: Joe's trip and all the epiphanies that came along with it was pure poetry- beautiful writing!
ReplyDeleteYou must've had the idea for this for ages. Wonderful
ReplyDeleteThank you!
DeleteI think that I wrote the outline of Joe's coming-out column somewhere around 2010.
JPM, who is this "Justin" character? He'd better keep his hands off of Andy's man, is all I'm sayin'.
ReplyDeleteAn oratorio
ReplyDeleteOf course everyone who says how brilliantly this is written and delights in the versatility of an entirely new format is right. But I'm surprised that no one has noticed what I thought was one of the most interesting points about this exchange: how Joe, after all these years, still is protective of Chris. Despite how horribly Chris has treated him, he still thinks that Chris's secret is his and his alone to spill. So even when the conversation turns to Chris's supposed Platonic crush on him, Joe's response is simply noncommital. Among his other qualities, Joe is surely a mensch among men
ReplyDeleteCLS.
Why is that wrong? I would never out somebody, except an anti-gay leader, like a politician or preacher. It is against the "code." It sounds like Chris is being hurt by his own attitudes without needing to be maliciously outed. It seems like nearly ALL of his college friends don't speak to him anymore. What would Joe gain from outing Chris, besides some sort of petty vengeance?
DeleteI didn't understand him to be arguing that it's wrong.
DeleteMore on this to come.
Yeah, I'm the one who is wrong. For some reason, I thought mensch was a negative word, like the word "idiot." I have no idea what short-circuited in my brain to make me think that. So, sorry anon 201406171217, I apparently need to work on my common Yiddish.
DeleteI learned some Yiddish from Curb Your Enthusiasm, which is a shanda.
DeleteI love how you are so willing to experiment with different viewpoints. It was a great idea to have the multiple viewpoints on Joe's coming out. As mentioned by someone above, Trevor really revealed himself to be the most awesome friend to Joe through the whole incident. I did feel the love Joe still had for Chris by protecting him years later.
ReplyDeleteThe only thing I would say that didn't quite work for me was the set up of all of these people (including Joe's mum) being together to specifically discuss Joe's coming out.
Fave line: I don't tell you every time I cunniling a woman.
Love Sam!
Thanks, JPM.
Thanks!
DeleteThere was zero intention on my part to imply that this was a transcript of a group conversation. I agree that that would make no sense and be generally insane.
One way to read this might be as a series of gchats or phone calls that happened over time and were selectively edited by Joe. But there might be other ways to understand it as well.
DeleteI read it is as Joe giving us a play (a drama, if you will) describing the drama of his coming out. Matt then fits nicely, I believe, as Greek chorus.
DeleteJSH
I was thinking of it as one of those multiple video clip things that cut back and forth between different people being interviewed - although it could also have been a group chat I suppose.
DeleteI don't know how this will work as a chapter when you finally publish this as a novel, but it wasn't difficult to follow here.
ADB
I imagined it as a documentary - Joe’s friends as historians sitting in a book-lined study, describing the Battle of Antietam to Ken Burns.
DeleteI actually really like the ambiguity around what these conversations “actually” are. It goes well with the general ambiguity surrounding the whole format of the story. Joe presents himself not just as the narrator but as the author (referring to getting emails from readers, or how the act of writing has helped him understand his relationship with Chris better). And yet who was writing Chapter 16? Then in the next chapter Joe continues the story as if he never left us. The blurring between memoir and fiction is part of the charm. In fact, we should probably consider JPM’s blog and Twitter feed as part of the narrative ambiguity of the story. When a character is the author, maybe the author is a character too. I mean, surely it’s no coincidence that Joe and JPM share an initial.
"In fact, we should probably consider JPM’s blog and Twitter feed as part of the narrative ambiguity of the story."
DeleteYou're giving me some interesting ideas.
In addition to being the stock symbol for J.P. Morgan, JPM is the initials of the narrator in the first story I wrote. I'm glad that I didn't call my gmail account cooldude420 or backstreet4eva.
the format of various voices reminds one of "Our Town." There is also a Faulkneresque stream of consciousness element. Great narrative. The movie will be amazing.
DeleteMost Amazing of all the chapters i have ever read :)
ReplyDeleteGreeeetings From INDIA !! :)
Eagerly awaiting the next chapter :)
Cheers !!
I thought that chapter was really sad. I know that it was unlikely that Joe and Chris would get back together given how Chapter 26 ended. I guess I had hoped they would eventually. Maybe meet up in Union Square after work some chilly October day. But what I didn’t understand was why Joe, who is such a tremendously private guy, would out himself in such a spectacularly public way. And then why would he immediately go into hiding after affirmatively choosing to engage everyone. It dawned on me, though, that Joe probably didn’t come out for himself. He came out for Chris--to save him from a lifetime “sitting in front of a flat screen, anxious and adrift.” That was an absolutely stunning gift Joe gave Chris, who could not even recognize it as something positive. And I thought my heart broke when Chris tore up the letter.
ReplyDeleteThe irony is that I think Chris needs Joe more than Joe needs Chris. Joe actually loves Chris in a way most adults would recognize, but Chris’s seems more visceral, a deep emotional and psychological connection. Both, facing each other’s loss after graduation, react differently. Joe grabs onto Chris to draw him in; Chris recoils from his pain. The more Joe pulls him in, the more Chris resists. Had Joe set a course for himself and let Chris come along on his own terms, they would likely have been together I bet. But maybe that wouldn’t have been the best for either.
I do wonder how, in Joe’s mind, Chris saved him.
"Joe probably didn’t come out for himself. He came out for Chris"
ReplyDeleteBut did he? He says he knew exactly how Chris would react - and yea, maybe that's an exaggeration borne of hindsight, but they were so close that maybe he really did know how Chris would react, and if he could predict that, why would he think that coming out in his column would save Chris from a lifetime sitting in front of a flat screen, anxious and adrift?
I wasn’t suggesting that I thought Chris was going to read that column and suddenly become Mr. Gay Pride. I was thinking that by coming out, maybe Joe was hoping to show Chris that it would be okay to be gay, maybe even to be out. That would necessarily take some time. I just don't see why Joe would out himself so publicly and then go hide from everyone unless something else was driving it.
ReplyDeleteAnother absolutely unbelievable segment of the story unfolds. Getting a little "flowery" with the metaphor here, but reading this is like looking at a garden... each character opens up and is beautiful to look at but the story as a whole is just so spectacular when you step back and take a look at the sum of it's parts.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely incredible writing...
I can't help but feel like this latest chapter really highlights how the pressure in coming out is really an internal one. Knowing how Chris would react, knowing his friends/family (to the extent that any of us know) and their reactions, Joe treats it like a band-aid that needs to come off in one painful swipe, BAM! its done. But what really happens is that people care about him and want to partake in his personal life and get worried and concerned when he is incommunicado. So many people care, care about him and he just wants the dust to settle, which is understandable. Amazing that this story is fiction, its so applicable to so much of life. Bravo, you continue to outdo yourself JPM!
Just saw your latest Twitter post. I actually did get your Westeros allusions in Chapter 25 and loved them! A nice touch that emphasized how much the week in Michigan was like a trip to a fantasy world. And "winter is coming" was some nice foreshadowing.
ReplyDeleteHaha, exactly! Thank you!
DeleteHa! Joe finally answers my years of existential questioning. We're just "Articulate systems of water."
ReplyDeleteEveryone's search for meaning is over now! Tip your bartenders, gang.
DeleteBrilliant chapter. Such an interesting, innovative approach to present the cacophony of voices and reactions. Reading the comments made by so many other readers is almost as good as devouring the chapters. Some of the points of view are surprising and different to my own, but most of the comments mesh in with my own feelings about the story. I love reading the debate on the characters, but more than that I like readers' expression of their reasons for admiration for this incredibly well crafted piece of writing. It is astonishing how so many aspects of the story can be so good. The story line, the occasional change of mode, the narrative pace changes, the character development and most of all the beautiful language. The description of Joe's trip was simply awesome. Articulate water. A very interesting concept - where did you get that from JPM?
ReplyDeleteHere's my biggest problem - for me, unfortunately it's a struggle to express admiration for the story with anything approaching the skill in which the story has been written.
I went to a graduation recently and s the pain of ending on so many faces. I spoke to a number of the graduates about their emotions. It was gut wrenching to see and it make me think of past chapters.
I have been reading this story since you started writing it, and I have been waiting for each new chapter since I read the first one, sometime in August 2008. Thank you so much for the time and effort you have put into it.
Bill
Brilliant chapter. Such an interesting, innovative approach to present the cacophony of voices and reactions. Reading the comments made by so many other readers is almost as good as devouring the chapters. Some of the points of view are surprising and different to my own, but most of the comments mesh in with my own feelings about the story. I love reading the debate on the characters, but more than that I like readers' expression of their reasons for admiration for this incredibly well crafted piece of writing. It is astonishing how so many aspects of the story can be so good. The story line, the occasional change of mode, the narrative pace changes, the character development and most of all the beautiful language. The description of Joe's trip was simply awesome. Articulate water. A very interesting concept - where did you get that from JPM?
ReplyDeleteHere's my biggest problem - for me, unfortunately it's a struggle to express admiration for the story with anything approaching the skill in which the story has been written.
I went to a graduation recently and s the pain of ending on so many faces. I spoke to a number of the graduates about their emotions. It was gut wrenching to see and it make me think of past chapters.
I have been reading this story since you started writing it, and I have been waiting for each new chapter since I read the first one, sometime in August 2008. Thank you so much for the time and effort you have put into it.
O Captain! My Captain!
ReplyDeleteHas M. Proust at long last returned from the countryside, cloistered himself, and taken up his quill?
ReplyDeleteFor a long time, I went to bed early.
DeletePlease sir, may we have some more Joe College?
ReplyDeleteYES! I have had no quality free time to myself since August. I should be able to get back into this soon.
DeleteHow is the new chapter coming up? Cant wait!
ReplyDeleteUgh, hopefully it'll be posted soon. But in mid-November I was pretty positive it would go up before Thanksgiving. Sorry! Thanks for sticking with me.
Delete